(oops, sending to list now)
I have an alternate idea for transitioning which I wrote to the pd-dev list (which hasn;t made it back to my email yet but you can find it here:
https://lists.iem.at/hyperkitty/list/pd-dev@lists.iem.at/thread/BLPPJCU2DGEH...
As to color, AFAIK Pd only has 4 (and should have 3) - background, foreground, selected, and evil-red-rectangle. (I want to replace the red GOP indicator with something in the foreground color but haven't got around to it). Except possibly for the IEMGUI VU meter, other colors are settable in dialogs or programmatically.
So we could easily have these three settable via preferences or command line, like "pd -colors white black blue"
Or am I missing something?
cheers
M
On 9/27/24 6:25 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
It seems people have some solutions for sure, but they do largely relay on some Tcl ala https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiSJYUedDQ$. However said PR is pretty clean and has been use for some time.
As for any sort of transition, I think we need proper encapsulation of the communication for GUI control so that using a different widget systems is easier, ie. GUI comm wrappers to make the comm more Tcl agnostic. *Next* we could do a transition where a minimal version of vanilla can stay with Tcl/Tk while a development version can try something else.
I know this came up already for projects like Bela that rely on (re)implementing the GUI and IOhannes started work on this in a PR last year, but ran into performance problems. If we really have an easy and *smart* way to separate "core" and "gui" so that the core doesn't care how the GUI renders as long as it gets mouse/touch movements and sends "draw object here", then people can do whatever they want instead of trying to force every change onto Pd.
IOhannes' PR https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiTWDdSKfA$
I feel the same about other pain points for people: provide some modularization so that all forks use the same core and just implement their own versions as long there are appropriate hooks for access. I think this is happening slowly but, honestly, I see the continued "pd-extended version 10" forks undermining development in this direction. Oh well, can't force people to work in a certain way.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 4:52 PM, Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu wrote:
Yeah, I just haven't made time to study the various proposals and figure out what to do about it. I sort of want to figure out if/how to migrate from Tcl/TK and am resisting putting in all sorts of gui features that might cause trouble later. So far I think Pd has to be able to generate colors in '999' format, plus foreground, background, and selected-item colors (black, white and blue by default).
Personally I've found configurable colors in other editors to be a major pain when I make the background black and the foreground white, as I prefer for editing text - some briliant helpful person has decided to make my editor highight syntax in colors I can't see against black. I'd rather not get into a mes like that with Pd :)
Miller
On 9/27/24 1:03 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
If you are amenable... can we find a way to make this runtime configurable in an upcoming vanilla release? There are at least 2-3 implementations and a PR already. The issue is a paper-cut for many users.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:31:36 +0200 From: Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu Subject: [PD] Re: Changing vanilla colors To:pd-list@lists.iem.at Message-ID: 9feaa31e-38b5-4301-b464-1c2de63ce02b@cloud.ucsd.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I think you can now use any hex color you want - I avoided those in the 90s when a lot of screens were color-mapped but that's a rarity nowadays.
cheers
Miller
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiRGltkMIw$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo1eLyWuBmQsqao2OS-ueap-l2Mau9qYkmHmbR0WYkL0ruicmYujxgb-XmVMu7_Lv4$ robotcowboy.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiQKstNluw$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo1eLyWuBmQsqao2OS-ueap-l2Mau9qYkmHmbR0WYkL0ruicmYujxgb-XmVlRiUCYM$
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Em sáb., 28 de set. de 2024 às 12:26, Miller Puckette < mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu> escreveu:
So we could easily have these three settable via preferences or command line, like "pd -colors white black blue"
Or am I missing something?
Not really I guess, and it's a good start, but we could have more settable colors for more items. At least I think that's what the seb shader's PR is about, right? And his 'pdnext' fork can set collors for different things like inlets/outlets and stuff.
I guess people that are using Pd-next like, for instance, to set a different color for control and signal inlets/outlets, and also different colors for signal/control connections. Different colors for objects, message boxes and stuff/etc.
Anyway, one way or another, we could also have these settings in the preferences, not only via startup flags. Or maybe it's just preferable to have it in the settings (say, under the 'misc' tab), so users can pick the colors and also save it as part of a whole preference settings.
We could start with the basic few colors and maybe later add more options for configuring more specific items.
cheers
cheers
M
On 9/27/24 6:25 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
It seems people have some solutions for sure, but they do largely relay on some Tcl ala https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196 <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196_....
However said PR is pretty clean and has been use for some time.
As for any sort of transition, I think we need proper encapsulation of the communication for GUI control so that using a different widget systems is easier, ie. GUI comm wrappers to make the comm more Tcl agnostic. *Next* we could do a transition where a minimal version of vanilla can stay with Tcl/Tk while a development version can try something else.
I know this came up already for projects like Bela that rely on (re)implementing the GUI and IOhannes started work on this in a PR last year, but ran into performance problems. If we really have an easy and *smart* way to separate "core" and "gui" so that the core doesn't care how the GUI renders as long as it gets mouse/touch movements and sends "draw object here", then people can do whatever they want instead of trying to force every change onto Pd.
IOhannes' PR https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765 <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765...
I feel the same about other pain points for people: provide some modularization so that all forks use the same core and just implement their own versions as long there are appropriate hooks for access. I think this is happening slowly but, honestly, I see the continued "pd-extended version 10" forks undermining development in this direction. Oh well, can't force people to work in a certain way.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 4:52 PM, Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu wrote:
Yeah, I just haven't made time to study the various proposals and figure out what to do about it. I sort of want to figure out if/how to migrate from Tcl/TK and am resisting putting in all sorts of gui features that might cause trouble later. So far I think Pd has to be able to generate colors in '999' format, plus foreground, background, and selected-item colors (black, white and blue by default).
Personally I've found configurable colors in other editors to be a major pain when I make the background black and the foreground white, as I prefer for editing text - some briliant helpful person has decided to make my editor highight syntax in colors I can't see against black. I'd rather not get into a mes like that with Pd :)
Miller
On 9/27/24 1:03 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
If you are amenable... can we find a way to make this runtime configurable in an upcoming vanilla release? There are at least 2-3 implementations and a PR already. The issue is a paper-cut for many users.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:31:36 +0200 From: Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu Subject: [PD] Re: Changing vanilla colors To:pd-list@lists.iem.at Message-ID: 9feaa31e-38b5-4301-b464-1c2de63ce02b@cloud.ucsd.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I think you can now use any hex color you want - I avoided those in
the
90s when a lot of screens were color-mapped but that's a rarity nowadays.
cheers
Miller
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u...
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo...
robotcowboy.com <
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Could we have color information saved in the patch like we have font size? That would mean abstractions would honor it as well which would be nice but possibly a great deal of work? Even dark mode seems it would be difficult to make work error free short of simply inverting all colors which does not always work the best.
On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 11:49 AM Alexandre porres@gmail.com wrote:
Em sáb., 28 de set. de 2024 às 12:26, Miller Puckette < mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu> escreveu:
So we could easily have these three settable via preferences or command line, like "pd -colors white black blue"
Or am I missing something?
Not really I guess, and it's a good start, but we could have more settable colors for more items. At least I think that's what the seb shader's PR is about, right? And his 'pdnext' fork can set collors for different things like inlets/outlets and stuff.
I guess people that are using Pd-next like, for instance, to set a different color for control and signal inlets/outlets, and also different colors for signal/control connections. Different colors for objects, message boxes and stuff/etc.
Anyway, one way or another, we could also have these settings in the preferences, not only via startup flags. Or maybe it's just preferable to have it in the settings (say, under the 'misc' tab), so users can pick the colors and also save it as part of a whole preference settings.
We could start with the basic few colors and maybe later add more options for configuring more specific items.
cheers
cheers
M
On 9/27/24 6:25 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
It seems people have some solutions for sure, but they do largely relay on some Tcl ala https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196 <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196_....
However said PR is pretty clean and has been use for some time.
As for any sort of transition, I think we need proper encapsulation of the communication for GUI control so that using a different widget systems is easier, ie. GUI comm wrappers to make the comm more Tcl agnostic. *Next* we could do a transition where a minimal version of vanilla can stay with Tcl/Tk while a development version can try something else.
I know this came up already for projects like Bela that rely on (re)implementing the GUI and IOhannes started work on this in a PR last year, but ran into performance problems. If we really have an easy and *smart* way to separate "core" and "gui" so that the core doesn't care how the GUI renders as long as it gets mouse/touch movements and sends "draw object here", then people can do whatever they want instead of trying to force every change onto Pd.
IOhannes' PR https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765 <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765...
I feel the same about other pain points for people: provide some modularization so that all forks use the same core and just implement their own versions as long there are appropriate hooks for access. I think this is happening slowly but, honestly, I see the continued "pd-extended version 10" forks undermining development in this direction. Oh well, can't force people to work in a certain way.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 4:52 PM, Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu wrote:
Yeah, I just haven't made time to study the various proposals and figure out what to do about it. I sort of want to figure out if/how to migrate from Tcl/TK and am resisting putting in all sorts of gui features that might cause trouble later. So far I think Pd has to be able to generate colors in '999' format, plus foreground, background, and selected-item colors (black, white and blue by default).
Personally I've found configurable colors in other editors to be a major pain when I make the background black and the foreground white, as I prefer for editing text - some briliant helpful person has decided to make my editor highight syntax in colors I can't see against black. I'd rather not get into a mes like that with Pd :)
Miller
On 9/27/24 1:03 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
If you are amenable... can we find a way to make this runtime configurable in an upcoming vanilla release? There are at least 2-3 implementations and a PR already. The issue is a paper-cut for many users.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:31:36 +0200 From: Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu Subject: [PD] Re: Changing vanilla colors To:pd-list@lists.iem.at Message-ID: 9feaa31e-38b5-4301-b464-1c2de63ce02b@cloud.ucsd.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I think you can now use any hex color you want - I avoided those in
the
90s when a lot of screens were color-mapped but that's a rarity nowadays.
cheers
Miller
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com <
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u...
<
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo...
robotcowboy.com <
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<
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There's been a bit of discussion about this in https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/1482
For abstractions, the general way to do user-facing colors is to use iemguis and set their values. For iemguis the solution for color theming in the discussion above was to add a flag to iemguis (sliders, bangs, radios etc) for whether to use the set value (current behavior) or to take the color values from the theme. We could also add settable colors to gatoms (list, number & symbol boxes) for ui. I think for arrays this is partially done. (my pr uses a color value of -1 to use theme color for array values).
-Seb
On Saturday, September 28, 2024 at 12:50:30 PM CDT, adam johnson ulioidle@gmail.com wrote:
Could we have color information saved in the patch like we have font size? That would mean abstractions would honor it as well which would be nice but possibly a great deal of work? Even dark mode seems it would be difficult to make work error free short of simply inverting all colors which does not always work the best.
On Sat, Sep 28, 2024 at 11:49 AM Alexandre porres@gmail.com wrote:
Em sáb., 28 de set. de 2024 às 12:26, Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu escreveu:
So we could easily have these three settable via preferences or command line, like "pd -colors white black blue"
Or am I missing something?
Not really I guess, and it's a good start, but we could have more settable colors for more items. At least I think that's what the seb shader's PR is about, right? And his 'pdnext' fork can set collors for different things like inlets/outlets and stuff.
I guess people that are using Pd-next like, for instance, to set a different color for control and signal inlets/outlets, and also different colors for signal/control connections. Different colors for objects, message boxes and stuff/etc.
Anyway, one way or another, we could also have these settings in the preferences, not only via startup flags. Or maybe it's just preferable to have it in the settings (say, under the 'misc' tab), so users can pick the colors and also save it as part of a whole preference settings.
We could start with the basic few colors and maybe later add more options for configuring more specific items.
cheers
cheers
M
On 9/27/24 6:25 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
It seems people have some solutions for sure, but they do largely relay on some Tcl ala https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/196__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiSJYUedDQ$. However said PR is pretty clean and has been use for some time.
As for any sort of transition, I think we need proper encapsulation of the communication for GUI control so that using a different widget systems is easier, ie. GUI comm wrappers to make the comm more Tcl agnostic. *Next* we could do a transition where a minimal version of vanilla can stay with Tcl/Tk while a development version can try something else.
I know this came up already for projects like Bela that rely on (re)implementing the GUI and IOhannes started work on this in a PR last year, but ran into performance problems. If we really have an easy and *smart* way to separate "core" and "gui" so that the core doesn't care how the GUI renders as long as it gets mouse/touch movements and sends "draw object here", then people can do whatever they want instead of trying to force every change onto Pd.
IOhannes' PR https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1765__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiTWDdSKfA$
I feel the same about other pain points for people: provide some modularization so that all forks use the same core and just implement their own versions as long there are appropriate hooks for access. I think this is happening slowly but, honestly, I see the continued "pd-extended version 10" forks undermining development in this direction. Oh well, can't force people to work in a certain way.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 4:52 PM, Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu wrote:
Yeah, I just haven't made time to study the various proposals and figure out what to do about it. I sort of want to figure out if/how to migrate from Tcl/TK and am resisting putting in all sorts of gui features that might cause trouble later. So far I think Pd has to be able to generate colors in '999' format, plus foreground, background, and selected-item colors (black, white and blue by default).
Personally I've found configurable colors in other editors to be a major pain when I make the background black and the foreground white, as I prefer for editing text - some briliant helpful person has decided to make my editor highight syntax in colors I can't see against black. I'd rather not get into a mes like that with Pd :)
Miller
On 9/27/24 1:03 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
If you are amenable... can we find a way to make this runtime configurable in an upcoming vanilla release? There are at least 2-3 implementations and a PR already. The issue is a paper-cut for many users.
On Sep 27, 2024, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-request@lists.iem.at wrote:
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 10:31:36 +0200 From: Miller Puckette mpuckette@cloud.ucsd.edu Subject: [PD] Re: Changing vanilla colors To:pd-list@lists.iem.at Message-ID: 9feaa31e-38b5-4301-b464-1c2de63ce02b@cloud.ucsd.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I think you can now use any hex color you want - I avoided those in the 90s when a lot of screens were color-mapped but that's a rarity nowadays.
cheers
Miller
Dan Wilcox danomatika.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiRGltkMIw$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo1eLyWuBmQsqao2OS-ueap-l2Mau9qYkmHmbR0WYkL0ruicmYujxgb-XmVMu7_Lv4$ robotcowboy.com https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com/__;!!Mih3wA!En0D-kBkmTpN7u_MgwnVFt5YChSkB1Ejm06hkeRMOiSwoOskejmuQPhIIrC6eJVTqTYZS3Bpjw5XXjjeuiQKstNluw$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com__;!!Mih3wA!D14At2S5KsE0Vbo1eLyWuBmQsqao2OS-ueap-l2Mau9qYkmHmbR0WYkL0ruicmYujxgb-XmVlRiUCYM$
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On 28/09/2024 16:26, Miller Puckette wrote:
So we could easily have these three settable via preferences or command line, like "pd -colors white black blue"
Even this minimal implementation would be so great for now. Basic dark mode Pd. 🙌
Cheers,
Chris.
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adam johnson -
Alexandre -
Chris McCormick -
Miller Puckette -
Sebastian Shader