Hi Alex (Porres)
I noticed that only the most recent version of ELSE is available through Deken. When releasing newer versions, I consider it good practice to keep older versions online. I don't see any harm in doing that. OTOH, I see problems in removing outdated versions. For instance, my script that downloads dependencies suddenly breaks.
BTW: I'm today getting a 404 when trying to download:
http://puredata.info/Members/porres/software/else/1.0beta27/else%5Bv1.0beta2...
although that version is listed in Deken. Probably, Deken's cache is outdated. Another reason to keep old versions online.
Roman
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:49 +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
Hi Alex (Porres)
I noticed that only the most recent version of ELSE is available through Deken.
I see you released 1.0beta28-with-Live-Electronics-Tutorial. Please remove .git from the Live-Electronics-Tutorial folder. There is no point in distributing the whole git history with a released version.
Thanks. And many thanks for the library!
Roman
Hi, I've actually been struggling since yesterday to update and change those files to include my live electronics tutorial as part of the download package,and I've been miserably failing at it. Sorry, it's been a mess! My idea is that both of these things need now to be merged into a single combo pack and I'm trying to find the best way - see https://github.com/pure-data/deken/issues/222
And be welcome to help me figure it out :)
How does this script works? Maybe I can use it to make people get both the else library and the tutorial together. But maybe we can discuss it in an issue on my guthub, open an issue there?
Em dom., 7 de jun. de 2020 às 10:11, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com escreveu:
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 14:49 +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
Hi Alex (Porres)
I noticed that only the most recent version of ELSE is available through Deken.
I see you released 1.0beta28-with-Live-Electronics-Tutorial.
Yeah, I haven't announced yet cause I'm still in the process of updating, but there's a new version coming out!
To make things worse, I can't compile on windows anymore with the new pd lib builder... but mac and linux versions so far. To make things even crazier, I've been trying different formats and standards, so deken might be confusing for a day or 2.
Please remove .git from the Live-Electronics-Tutorial folder. There is no point in distributing the whole git history with a released version.
I just gave up what I was trying to do and I'm just including the folder of the live electronics tutorial inside else now. I missed this because it is a hidden file in my system, I didn't even noticed. Thanks!
Well, anyway, you can still find all versions on github https://github.com/porres/pd-else/releases new one is still missing windows binaries and I'm asking Lucas help for that
Thanks. And many thanks for the library!
welcome :)
Em dom., 7 de jun. de 2020 às 10:11, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com escreveu:
I see you released 1.0beta28-with-Live-Electronics-Tutorial.
actually... hold on a minute, I'm making a new change to the release :) the new one is now marked to be released on june 8th, not today anymore, I made a small but big change. The new release is tagged on the repository but no binaries yet. Now excuse me, my partner is forcing me to take the sunday and cleanup the house.
cheers
ps. hope you're all doing well in these crazy times, we're diving into the absurd now in brazil
Hi all
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 10:35 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi, I've actually been struggling since yesterday to update and change those files to include my live electronics tutorial as part of the download package [...]
I hear you, though I'm actually asking you to do _less_, not more. Can you please _not_ delete outdated versions from Deken? Is there a specific reason to do so?
Roman
The reason now, like I told you, is that I was/am trying to merge into the same download the inclusion of my tutorial as a single combo pack... so I put it down and tried to reupload but failed.
I've been asked before to keep old stuff and we discussed this before, and I agreed it wouldn't hurt to keep not that many old versions around. It gets to a point where things change so much and so quickly that I just thought it was too much pollution to keep old stuff around, so I had this policy. But the thing now is that I'm trying to do this, and it got out of hand and over complicated, sorry.
But it seems now I'm being able to do it, let's see it in a day.
I can also just put the last version back if you give me a moment, and I'm still curious, how does your script work? Can you please tell me more about your needs?
Actually, I'm also now concerned if this script will work with my attempt to pack two folders into a single download for deken.
cheers
Em dom., 7 de jun. de 2020 às 18:32, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com escreveu:
Hi all
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 10:35 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Hi, I've actually been struggling since yesterday to update and change those files to include my live electronics tutorial as part of the download package [...]
I hear you, though I'm actually asking you to do _less_, not more. Can you please _not_ delete outdated versions from Deken? Is there a specific reason to do so?
Roman _______________________________________________ Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 19:34 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
The reason now, like I told you, is that I was/am trying to merge into the same download the inclusion of my tutorial as a single combo pack... so I put it down and tried to reupload but failed.
I see. What I'm actually suggesting is to do not touch already released versions at all. If you make changes, then it should have a new version and you should create a new release for this new version. At least that is how I think releases should be handled and it seems already common practice in Deken (and probably everywhere else in the software world). Of course, you're free to do whatever you want with your software.
I've been asked before to keep old stuff and we discussed this before, and I agreed it wouldn't hurt to keep not that many old versions around. It gets to a point where things change so much and so quickly that I just thought it was too much pollution to keep old stuff around
I don't see the problem of pollution as long as you release new versions with a higher version number (which you do). Newest version appears on top in Deken. Right now, Deken provides the ELSE library only for two architectures.
so I had this policy. But the thing now is that I'm trying to do this, and it got out of hand and over complicated, sorry.
But it seems now I'm being able to do it, let's see it in a day.
I can also just put the last version back if you give me a moment,
You don't have put stuff back solely for me.
and I'm still curious, how does your script work? Can you please tell me more about your needs?
Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned my script. It's not relevant to the discussion. My point is to not confuse regular users of the library. I think they should have easy access to previous versions when they develop their patches dependent on the library, for instance for testing regressions.
My script simply downloads the library from a configured URL and extracts it to the right place, nothing fancy [1].
Actually, I'm also now concerned if this script will work with my attempt to pack two folders into a single download for deken.
Again, you should not be concerned about my script, but about regular users.
Roman
[1] I got many complaints about how hard is to install netpd, that's why I'm trying to create standalone applications for macOS and Windows with Pd+externals+netpd+instruments bundled. The script also downloads and extracts the ELSE library.
Hi Alex,
just to sum up and emphasize what Roman has been saying: it's good practice to keep old releases around, because existing projects might depend on it. This is especially relevant in the case of "else", since there are breaking changes between beta versions.
Of course, you're free to tell users to get old releases from GitHub, but IMO this defeats the purpose of Deken.
As Roman mentioned, Deken shows the library in decreasing order of the version number. To get the most recent version, people just have to click the first entry.
So please consider not removing "else" releases from Deken in the future.
Christof
On 08.06.2020 09:27, Roman Haefeli wrote:
On Sun, 2020-06-07 at 19:34 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
The reason now, like I told you, is that I was/am trying to merge into the same download the inclusion of my tutorial as a single combo pack... so I put it down and tried to reupload but failed.
I see. What I'm actually suggesting is to do not touch already released versions at all. If you make changes, then it should have a new version and you should create a new release for this new version. At least that is how I think releases should be handled and it seems already common practice in Deken (and probably everywhere else in the software world). Of course, you're free to do whatever you want with your software.
I've been asked before to keep old stuff and we discussed this before, and I agreed it wouldn't hurt to keep not that many old versions around. It gets to a point where things change so much and so quickly that I just thought it was too much pollution to keep old stuff around
I don't see the problem of pollution as long as you release new versions with a higher version number (which you do). Newest version appears on top in Deken. Right now, Deken provides the ELSE library only for two architectures.
so I had this policy. But the thing now is that I'm trying to do this, and it got out of hand and over complicated, sorry.
But it seems now I'm being able to do it, let's see it in a day.
I can also just put the last version back if you give me a moment,
You don't have put stuff back solely for me.
and I'm still curious, how does your script work? Can you please tell me more about your needs?
Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned my script. It's not relevant to the discussion. My point is to not confuse regular users of the library. I think they should have easy access to previous versions when they develop their patches dependent on the library, for instance for testing regressions.
My script simply downloads the library from a configured URL and extracts it to the right place, nothing fancy [1].
Actually, I'm also now concerned if this script will work with my attempt to pack two folders into a single download for deken.
Again, you should not be concerned about my script, but about regular users.
Roman
[1] I got many complaints about how hard is to install netpd, that's why I'm trying to create standalone applications for macOS and Windows with Pd+externals+netpd+instruments bundled. The script also downloads and extracts the ELSE library.
Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Yup, I understand it all, and I've been trying to say my idea was to replace that download (beta 27), reupload it, but containing my live electronics tutorial with it. It seems this is not clear somehow, so, again, I wanted to take it down and put it back like that, and then it didn't work.
Yes, I was also in the process of getting a new release ready and upload it too, but I did this first and it didn't work, and I didn't know what to do with the new release as well. I tried many things in the last few days and it wasn't my intent to not have a single working version of else in deken available. I'm still trying to see if I want to do works or not. So don't assume what's in deken is what I want to be there, I said that it's a mess. I'm testing things and I haven't officially released the new version yet.
Newest version appears on top in Deken. Right now. Deken provides the
ELSE library only for two architectures.
As I said, you shouldn't consider what's in deken. For instance, the two downloads you mentioned have been deleted for quite a while. You can't get them. I'm waiting to see if the upload I made almost 24h ago will work as I intend.
I offered to put the last version back as it was if you needed right away, that's all.
And what exactly is my idea? To have a download from deken that includes both my library and my tutorial and that unpacks it into two separate folders from a single click. Oh, but one may only want the else library and don't care at all about the tutorial. Well, I dunno, what do you think? Feedbacks are welcome. I figure you can just delete that folder. And I also think it's a bit confusing and polluted if you have too many options, get only the library, only the tutorial or both... I'm hoping to have and manage only a single standard. But feedbacks are welcome.
This is why I asked Roman if this idea is ok and I'm worried now that he won't like the idea to be forced to have a script download both the library AND the tutorial.
cheers
and I've been trying to say my idea was to replace that download (beta 27), reupload it, but containing my live electronics tutorial with it.
It's not about beta 27, it's about *any* "else"-release. Some projects might depend on beta 24, some might need beta 13. Just don't delete old releases, that's all people are asking. (I'm not talking about replacing a broken upload, that is totally ok, of course)
How you package "else" and your tutorial is not related to the issue at hand (which is: "Please keep deken package online").
Christof
On 08.06.2020 16:41, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Yup, I understand it all, and I've been trying to say my idea was to replace that download (beta 27), reupload it, but containing my live electronics tutorial with it. It seems this is not clear somehow, so, again, I wanted to take it down and put it back like that, and then it didn't work.
Yes, I was also in the process of getting a new release ready and upload it too, but I did this first and it didn't work, and I didn't know what to do with the new release as well. I tried many things in the last few days and it wasn't my intent to not have a single working version of else in deken available. I'm still trying to see if I want to do works or not. So don't assume what's in deken is what I want to be there, I said that it's a mess. I'm testing things and I haven't officially released the new version yet.
Newest version appears on top in Deken. Right now. Deken provides
the ELSE library only for two architectures.
As I said, you shouldn't consider what's in deken. For instance, the two downloads you mentioned have been deleted for quite a while. You can't get them. I'm waiting to see if the upload I made almost 24h ago will work as I intend.
I offered to put the last version back as it was if you needed right away, that's all.
And what exactly is my idea? To have a download from deken that includes both my library and my tutorial and that unpacks it into two separate folders from a single click. Oh, but one may only want the else library and don't care at all about the tutorial. Well, I dunno, what do you think? Feedbacks are welcome. I figure you can just delete that folder. And I also think it's a bit confusing and polluted if you have too many options, get only the library, only the tutorial or both... I'm hoping to have and manage only a single standard. But feedbacks are welcome.
This is why I asked Roman if this idea is ok and I'm worried now that he won't like the idea to be forced to have a script download both the library AND the tutorial.
cheers
On 8 Jun 2020, at 16:41, Alexandre Torres Porres porres@gmail.com wrote:
Yup, I understand it all, and I've been trying to say my idea was to replace that download (beta 27), reupload it, but containing my live electronics tutorial with it. It seems this is not clear somehow, so, again, I wanted to take it down and put it back like that, and then it didn't work.
you see, the idea is to leave whatever there is untouched and upload new stuff. if you want to include your tutorial from now on, do it! but leave the old versions as they were…
it is not about what is there or who needs it. it is about the fact that it is nice and sometimes even mandatory to download something exactly as it was when first used/released. so there is really no point in you taking it down and uploading it again with something included that was not there before. just leave the old stuff there for reference/history whatever. see it as a “historical” documentation of your work. don’t change history man! :-)
Em seg., 8 de jun. de 2020 às 11:52, Simon Iten itensimon@gmail.com escreveu:
you see, the idea is to leave whatever there is untouched and upload new stuff. if you want to include your tutorial from now on, do it! but leave the old versions as they were…
Ok, I see! It didn't occur to me that merely replacing and adding a folder to the same download would count as changing the version (or history/whatever). For me it would just be the same download, same version, with something "else" => a bundle pack. But I get the confusion now, and I see the point! Leave it untouched, if creating a bundle pack, a new version should be made.
I don't really agree at all, but fine... and, in fact, one of the things I asked and suggested was to just put it back as it was... and I guess I'll just do that and we can get this over with ;)
And by the way, I almost named the new version as a "release candidate", the relevant breaking changes now are basically from the new functionality inlet~ provides in 0.51-0, I can't see more changes I could make but I'm leaving doors open. That is to say a final/stable release is quite near and the idea is to keep it stable and NEVER delete the final versions.
Anyway, thank you all for the inputs and the interest in my work.
Cheers
On Mon, 2020-06-08 at 11:41 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
This is why I asked Roman if this idea is ok and I'm worried now that he won't like the idea to be forced to have a script download both the library AND the tutorial.
You make it sound like I have some authority. I don't mean to make that impression. The only relevant point (IMHO) is my suggestion to leave stuff that is released and used by people untouched. Why? To make life easier for you and for ELSE users. And it is simply a suggestion. If you disagree, that's fine.
Please do not care about my script. It is really irrelevant in this discussion.
Roman
Em seg., 8 de jun. de 2020 às 12:47, Roman Haefeli reduzent@gmail.com escreveu:
You make it sound like I have some authority. I don't mean to make that impression. The only relevant point (IMHO) is my suggestion to leave stuff that is released and used by people untouched. Why? To make life easier for you and for ELSE users. And it is simply a suggestion. If you disagree, that's fine.
Cool, fair enough. I don't mean to make it sound like that though. If anything, I'm respecting your opinion/feedback and that's all. You can see a new release has been finally put out! I'm putting the last one back untouched as requested as well. It really bothers me that now that searching for 'else' gives you 2 different naming standards, but the task to change it to manually include the tutorial and upload the pack is so painfully tedious and long that I'm letting it go... I don't wanna deal with that process until necessary with further releases. And after a couple of new releases are up, I guess I won't resist cleaning up this odd one out (though I'm still not sure if I'm keeping this new standard).
Please do not care about my script.
I was curious how it worked, as I could maybe use it myself... guess I'll ask you off list. Also I was just worried if the new standard would screw you up... anyway, if you don't want to talk about it here, feel free to give some feedback on this new naming standard by replying to my release announcement if you want.
cheers
-
Alexandre Torres Porres -
Christof Ressi -
Roman Haefeli -
Simon Iten