On May 18, 2016 8:01:24 PM PDT, Miller Puckette <msp@ucsd.edu> wrote:

OK... I'm talked into it.  Should appear (as a "-x" optional flag) once 0.47-1
is ready.

cheers
Miller

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 11:07:36PM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
 Do you mean something like you have 1-baz.pd, 2-baz.pd, etc. and then inside your [clone] abstraction you've got [$1-baz]? I suppose this is a potential use case.​
 
 Haha, sorry bad wording from my side, but this also an interesting use case! 
 
 I rather meant projects where everything is broken into modules which themselves contain other modules etc. The first module in the tree takes an ID as an *creation argument* and passes it down do its submodules. Something like that. 
  

 
 
 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Mai 2016 um 22:40 Uhr
 Von: "Matt Barber" <brbrofsvl@gmail.com>
 An: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi@gmx.at>
 Cc: "Miller Puckette" <msp@ucsd.edu>, Pd-list <pd-list@lists.iem.at>
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number
 
 BTW: I guess, it's mostly a design question, whether to work with instance numbers inside abstractions and or to work with dispatching via the inlets and outlets. However, I can think of at least two cases where it's necessary to have immediate access to instance numbers inside an abstraction:
 a) [send~ foo-$1] or [catch~ bar-$1] to disambiguate audio inputs/outputs, because you can't set these two dynamically like [r~] and [throw~]
  
 
 ​Where do you envision the corresponding [r~ foo-$1] or [throw~ bar-$1] to reside? If it's in the same abstraction, then $0 ought to work just as well.​
  b) instantiate another abstraction by
the instance number (nested abstractions)
  
 
 ​Do you mean something like you have 1-baz.pd, 2-baz.pd, etc. and then inside your [clone] abstraction you've got [$1-baz]? I suppose this is a potential use case.​
  
 So the current behaviour of [clone] (passing the instance number as $1) can be important and very useful. The alternative mode I proposed is mainly for convenience but I'm sure it would pay off in the long run!
 
 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Mai 2016 um 18:45 Uhr
 Von: "Miller Puckette" <msp@ucsd.edu>
 An: "Alex Norman" <x37v.alex@gmail.com[x37v.alex@gmail.com]>
 
 Cc: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]>, Pd-list
<pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at]>
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number

 OK... sounds like it's worth putting in.  I guess with the one-letter it
 already takes (-s) I should also add something like a -e flag to put the
 number argument at the end of the list instead of the beginning, or something
 like that.

 cheers
 Miller

 On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 07:20:29AM -0700, Alex Norman wrote:
 I see your point, the abstraction need not know it's instance number since only the messages meant for it would be dispatched to it.. If you don't care about using sends directed to a specific abstraction then the $1 does nothing for you and if the flag to clone could ditch the $1 to instance setting and just set the arguments to the abstraction [clone -flag blah 20 1 2 3] makes 20 copies of blah
with args $1=1 $2=2.. You could use more of your existing abstractions as is, using their args the same way with or without clone.

 I'm warming up to that idea.

 Alex

 On May 17, 2016 6:44:51 PM PDT, Christof Ressi <christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]> wrote:
you can still disambiguate, because incoming messages are dispatched by
the instance number and outgoing messages are prepended with it!

My suggestion was mainly concerning all abstractions that work with
inlets and outlets (as opposed to sends and receives), where you
basically pass a message and get something out. This could be anything,
from simple message filtering to a perlin noise generator. Or also
existing audio modules that work with a message inlet. If there was
such a flag, you could take any of these
abstractions as they are,
control them separately by prepending the instance number and route the
message output (or use the sum of the audio output).

I guess, people will use [clone] mainly for voice management for
synthesizers, granular synthesis, complicated nested patches etc., but
I also see a great potential for massive data generation by using
existing simple abstractions and cloning them.

Personally, I have many abstractions I would like to use with [clone],
but either I'd have to rewrite them or make a wrapper abstraction. It's
not a big deal, it's just that an alternative forwarding mode would
provide some additional convenience (and could also encourage other
usages for [clone]).

Anyway, I can totally live without this feature, but would be happy to
have it :-).


Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. Mai 2016 um 02:35 Uhr
 Von: "Miller Puckette" <msp@ucsd.edu[msp@ucsd.edu]>
 An: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]>
 Cc: Pd-list <pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at]>
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number

 I'm not sure... would anyone ever use this feature?  The patch in
question
 would ahve to take arguments (if not, thre's no problem) but not use
them to
 disambiguate the instances (because clone will set them all equal
anyway).
 I have trouble
imaginig anyone building a patch like that.

 cheers
 Miller

 On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 12:54:16AM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
 What do you think about the idea with a flag for changing the way
creation arguments are forwarded? It would be really handy if you could
write something like
 [clone -flag 100 my-abstraction 5 6 7] and $1 $2 $3 will be
substituted by 5 6 7 instead of [N] 5 6. This way you could use
existing abstractions as they are, without the need for writing a
wrapper abstraction to handle the creation argument
forwarding.

 Christof

 Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Mai 2016 um 04:05 Uhr
 Von: "Miller Puckette" <msp@ucsd.edu[msp@ucsd.edu]>
 An: "Jaime Oliver" <jaime.oliver2@gmail.com[jaime.oliver2@gmail.com]>
 Cc: "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]>, Pd-list
<pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at]>
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number

 Cool, taking this suggestion.  At least for now it will work
either way,
 but it's much more readable with the abstraction name first so I
changed the
 help file to invoke it that way.

 cheers
 Miller

 On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 01:13:37PM -0400, Jaime Oliver wrote:
 Well,

 What would happen if instead of calling clone like:

 [clone 16 my-abstraction 1 5 9]

 we called it with:

 [clone my-abstraction 16 1 5 9]

 and then $1 seems quite appropriate.

 ?

 J



 On May 11, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Christof Ressi
<christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]> wrote:

 I agree that $1 is most natural!

 However, what about adding an additional flag -foo for
[clone], which changes the way creation arguments are parsed?
 Passing -foo could ignore the object ID and rather forward
creation arguments just as they are.

 This wouldn't break the current behaviour of [clone], but
provide some functionality to deal with ordinary abstractions more
conveniently.

 Christof







 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Mai 2016 um 18:06 Uhr
 Von: "Ivica Bukvic" <ico@vt.edu[ico@vt.edu]>
 An: "Miller Puckette" <msp@ucsd.edu[msp@ucsd.edu]>
 Cc: "IOhannes m zmoelnig" <zmoelnig@iem.at[zmoelnig@iem.at]>, Pd-list
<pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at]>, "Christof Ressi" <christof.ressi@gmx.at[christof.ressi@gmx.at]>
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number
 What about having an if statement that detects clone object
and if so, compensates for $2 discrepancy and assigns $1 to it instead
and increments from there? This way the discrepancy is internalized as
opposed to something user needs to deal with.
 --
 Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A.
 Associate Professor
 Computer Music
 ICAT Senior Fellow
 Director -- DISIS, L2Ork
 Virginia Tech
 School of Performing Arts – 0141
 Blacksburg, VA 24061
 (540) 231-6139
 ico@vt.edu[ico@vt.edu]
 www.performingarts.vt.edu[http://www.performingarts.vt.edu][http://www.performingarts.vt.edu[http://www.performingarts.vt.edu]]
 disis.icat.vt.edu[http://disis.icat.vt.edu][http://disis.icat.vt.edu[http://disis.icat.vt.edu]]
 l2ork.icat.vt.edu[http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu][http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu[http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu]]
 ico.bukvic.net[http://ico.bukvic.net][http://ico.bukvic.net[http://ico.bukvic.net]]

 On May 11, 2016 11:50, "Miller Puckette"
<msp@ucsd.edu[msp@ucsd.edu][msp@ucsd.edu[msp@ucsd.edu]]> wrote:I gave this some thought but
couldn't come up with anything more natural than
 the "$1" idea.  It allows for changing the other arguments
more easily than
 it would have been if the instance number were passed last.
Also, somehow
 it felt more natural to have the instance number first.

 If there's interest in the idea, I could add arrguments to
change the
 behavior (such as putting $1 last instead of first)...
Offhand I doubt that
 would get used much though.

 cheers
 Miller



 On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 05:26:21PM +0200, Christof Ressi
wrote:
 There's also a pitfall: additional creation arguments for
the cloned abstraction will start with $2.
 For example, in [clone 16 my-abstraction 1 5 9] '1' will be
parsed as $2, '5' as $3, '9' as $4 etc.
 No problem, if the abstraction
was written for being used
with [clone], but bad when cloning existing abstractions.

 I'm wondering if there could be a way to get the abstraction
ID without messing up existing abstractions... Maybe have a dedicated
object?

 For now, I think it's important to mention the parsing of
additional creation arguments in the help file.

 Christof

 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Mai
2016 um 16:25 Uhr
 Von: "IOhannes m zmoelnig"
<zmoelnig@iem.at[zmoelnig@iem.at][zmoelnig@iem.at[zmoelnig@iem.at]]>
 An: pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at][pd-list@lists.iem.at[pd-list@lists.iem.at]]
 Betreff: Re: [PD] [clone]'s instance number

 On 2016-05-11 16:18, Liam Goodacre wrote:
 Would it be possible to access [clone]'s unique instance
number from within the patch, a bit like a creation argument? This
could be used to achieve differentiation between the abstractions, ie.
if the abstraction contains "tabread4~ $-1.array" and the $-1 is
replaced with the instance number, then each instance could read a
different file. Of course there are other ways of doing this, but it
would be neat to do it with clone, and I'm wondering if there's a way.


 isn't this what $1 is already doing in clone's instances?


 fgasdmr
 IOhannes



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