basically, I agree with Alexandre. To sum it up quickly from my point of view:
 
1) "-path" in [declare] should apply to *all* paths - including the user defined paths.
2) "-stdpath" and "-stdlib" should be deprecated and just become aliases to "-path" and "-lib"
 
this way we would have a unified way of dealing with paths which would be less confusing. does anyone see possible issues with that?
 
Christof
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2018 um 17:13 Uhr
Von: "Alexandre Torres Porres" <porres@gmail.com>
An: "Roman Haefeli" <reduzent@gmail.com>
Cc: Pd-List <pd-list@lists.iem.at>
Betreff: Re: [PD] standard paths for externals
 
 
2018-06-13 4:18 GMT-03:00 Roman Haefeli <reduzent@gmail.com>:

I seem to disagree in almost everything you say.
 
I didnt say anything, I'm quoting someone else...
 
Your proposal has two - imho: major - drawbacks.
 
It's not my proposal, I'm not proposing anything...
 
By putting libraries
anywhere (outside any searchpath) and loading them per preferences, you
loose the ability to 'activate' libraries on the fly from the patch
with [declare]
 
Like I said, there is a Pull Request that already fixes this. And I'm the one who reported that issue, by the way, so I know about it.
 
I don't see a good reason to proactively work against this as you seem to
do.
 
again, this is not me, not my proposal, so I'm not doing anything...
 
In my understanding, the user should just know what libraries to
download and the rest is done by the patch by using the right
[declare}s. Also, by preventing [declare] from working - as you propose
 
It's funny how you keep putting this on my bill as my proposal. I dont know where you got the idea Im proposing that... all I said is that things are going this way now, and there might still be issues as with declare, but it'll be fixed in the next release. This is not a matter of opinion, not a proposal, just reporting facts here.
 
> > there's a deep rift between the factions.
>
> Ok, I don't know about that

Now you know.
 
All I know is that you're reporting a bug that has a Pull request that already fixes it. And by the way, it already works like that if you want to load libraries like cyclone, zexy, Gem. The issue is only with adding a path to declare. I, for one, just do not use [declare], and can live pretty well without it, really.

Deken has made it painless to download and add a path for you. I get it if you like [declare] and want to use it so maybe don't do this way right now. But you can live without it if you wanted. There are ways to manage dependencies and everything. All this argument seem to imply [declare] is the only possible mechanism to deal with importing libraries. It is not.
 
By 'new way' you mean that libraries should be installed anywhere and
added to the preferences?
 
yes, add it to the path, that is what Miller said in that message and all discussions prior to 0.48 went in this direction where we don't want people to install libraries to "Standard Paths", just into user added paths. Again, for the 1000th time, that wasn't my proposal, I actually argued against it, using the very same argument that [declare] wouldn't work well, but the idea is now to just fix that...
 
So yeah, I'm now cool with it...
 
It appears to me that you created this mess by requesting that  ~/Library/Pd should be replaced by ~/Documents/Pd (in macOS, at least).

I don't have the power to change Pd. And I didn't create any "mess" because I didn't propose a change to not use "standard paths" as you didn't like.
 
Yes, I proposed a new standard path change, but the outcome was that Miller and Dan felt users shouldn't use "standard paths", like I said before.
 
I couldn't care less about macOS, but in my opinion the fact that you need to hit Shift-Cmd-G to
graphically visit this folder doesn't warrant this change in Pd.
 
That is not what happened. Pd didn't change because of Apple... at all. 
 
Why does the user need to check that folder anyway, since
Deken already manages it quite well?
 
It actually doesn't, you still need to access folders to do simple things like removing an older version of a library before installing a new one. But again, you're not getting the real issue. None of this came up because of apple, or because deken is not perfect yet. It is only a matter of not wanting people to install libraries in "Standard Path" in the first and only place. Don't try to find other reason that that. That is it.
 
If you have an issue with that besides the bug that is already being fixed. Please bring it to the table.
 
sorry for saying it directly - which you are at least partially responsible for.
 
wow, I didn't realize when you mentioned a million times before I had responsibility for this :) thanks for being direct.
 
I hope you realize though I had zero responsibility (not even partial) as. I never proposed any of this and, in fact, like I said in the first message, I had opposed myself. 
 
Sorry to repeat myself over and over. But it seems it was necessary to make a point I'm not your target.
 
Cheers
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