Fred Jan,Now that's interesting. Thanks for testing it. What happens with larger data sets? One thousand, ten thousand, etc. And a question for Ivica,When you were using Max, did you mess with any global settings? I remember reading docs about a setting that could affect this (but I can't remember what it is atm). -Jonathan
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 11:06 AM, Ivica Bukvic <ico@vt.edu> wrote:
Threaded coll does the same because IIRC it enqueues events it cannot execute until the file is loaded, except, this makes it fall out of sync with the rest of the system in that case, but then again that is why coll has "done loading bang" outlet.Also, I think what will test Max's threaded nature (or not) is loading a huge coll file with small signal vector size and seeing if it drops samples. If it doesn't, unless there are fundamental differences in the audio engine between Pd and Max , this would suggest it is threaded. Another (easier?) way is to ask someone at Cycling74 :-)-- Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A. Associate Professor Computer Music ICAT Senior Fellow Director -- DISIS, L2Ork Virginia Tech School of Performing Arts – 0141 Blacksburg, VA 24061 (540) 231-6139 ico@vt.edu www.performingarts.vt.edu disis.icat.vt.edu l2ork.icat.vt.edu Ico.bukvic.netOn Oct 17, 2015 10:59 AM, "Fred Jan Kraan" fjkraan@xs4all.nl wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
Hi Fred Jan, I suppose what I am asking is if the read/write bang outlet happens depth-first in Max, or not.
The test patch in Max 5 looked more or less like this:
[bang(
|
[t b b]
|
| [read test.coll(
| |
[dump( |
\ /
[coll]
| |
[print]
[coll] and [print] have only one inlet. The right line is connected to the third outlet. A collection (100 pairs) is present in the test.coll. The bang is printed first, the list after that.
If I interpret this correctly, the [read test.coll( is executed depth first. Just like in cyclone.
If it does not, then it means Max _is_ sacrificing predictability for performance in that case. As long as we can predict that it will not crash, I think at least having that option would be important for compatibility.
-Jonathan
Fred Jan
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 7:21 AM, Fred Jan Kraan fjkraan@xs4all.nl wrote:
On 2015-10-17 06:38 AM, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
Hi Ivica,
When we discussed the threading feature before, I advocated against it since it breaks determinism.
There is an other reason for not adding threading to the coll object. In the past I did some testing and found it a quite convoluted object. It allows several types of indices (float, symbol) and has messages operating on only these subsets. I tried to document this in the help patch. Large collections and threading may be useful, but better suited for an object with a more consistent set of operations, and just one key type at a time to make results more predictable.
However, the Max/MSP documentation (as well as the outlet interface
itself)
suggests that Max's implementation is threaded, too. Why else would you need a bang to signal when it has finished reading the file, for example?
Can someone test how it works in practice in Max?
The testing I did was for functionality, and I found cyclone/coll was very much like Max/coll. Large collection loading was not in scope.
I'm in favor of the default behavior for the sake of backwards-compatibility within Pd. But if Max is actually threading the reads/writes, that would make this an important general feature for Max compatibility.
Compatibility is important, but not at any price. There are several objects in Max and cyclone which are troubled by 'Swiss-army-knife-syndrome'. Coll is certainly one of them. This makes improving it low priority for me (with the exception for crashing issues). Large collection support can be better implemented with a clear, ortogonal operation set in a new object.
-Jonathan
The latest source is in the SVN repository and at http://puredata.info/downloads/cyclone/releases http://puredata.info/downloads/cyclone/releases(you can ignore the '(unreleased)' postfix. It refuses to go away for now). It contains several bug-fixes and help-patches based on the Pd-l2ork versions. Current planning is to leave the SVN repository as it is now and start a Git repository based on the good work of IOhannes. But for now this is just planning.
Greetings,
Fred Jan
On Friday, October 16, 2015 11:50 PM, Ivica Bukvic <ico@vt.edu
mailto:ico@vt.edu> wrote:
cool = coll
Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A. Associate Professor Computer Music ICAT Senior Fellow Director -- DISIS, L2Ork Virginia Tech School of Performing Arts – 0141 Blacksburg, VA 24061 (540) 231-6139 ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu <mailto:ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu> www.performingarts.vt.edu http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/ disis.icat.vt.edu http://disis.icat.vt.edu/ l2ork.icat.vt.edu http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/ Ico.bukvic.net http://ico.bukvic.net/ On Oct 16, 2015 11:48 PM, "Ivica Bukvic" <ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu <mailto:ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu>> wrote:
I am sure this has been covered on this list before--if it is not too much of a trouble where can one get the new version of cyclone? Also, there are some improvements on pd-l2ork side of things that I've implemented that may detract from Max behavior but also offers other benefits. For instance, coll object can be threaded and as such allows loading of large files without dropping samples, albeit at the expense of determinacy, so one in these cases must rely on outputting done loading bang signal before working with the cool object. This option is fully backwards compatible and the default behavior is non-threaded. It would be great if we could have those merged so that we don't have to maintain two separate versions of the cyclone library. Best, -- Ivica Ico Bukvic, D.M.A. Associate Professor Computer Music ICAT Senior Fellow Director -- DISIS, L2Ork Virginia Tech School of Performing Arts – 0141 Blacksburg, VA 24061 (540) 231-6139 ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu <mailto:ico@vt.edu mailto:ico@vt.edu> www.performingarts.vt.edu http://www.performingarts.vt.edu/ disis.icat.vt.edu http://disis.icat.vt.edu/ l2ork.icat.vt.edu http://l2ork.icat.vt.edu/ Ico.bukvic.net http://ico.bukvic.net/ this has been corrected in the new cyclone library
actually, both cartopol~ and poltocar~ were "wrong" in the same way, but for extended 0.42 only poltocar~ was corrected, this incomplete fix ended up ruining spectral processing that was actually working before that.
get the new cyclone, many objects are being corrected
cheers
2015-10-16 18:14 GMT-03:00 Gilberto Agostinho via Pd-list <pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at
<mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>>:
Just a little update: the problem is with [cartopol~], its rightmost outlet is outputting the correct value multiplied by -1.
On 16/10/15 22:55, Gilberto Agostinho wrote:
Hello,
I believe I found a bug with the objects [cartopol~] and [poltocar~]. Basically, if I would connect both outlets of [cartopol~] to the inlets of [poltocar~], I would expect to receive the same values as I would input. The problem is that the output of the second outlet of [poltocar~] is multiplied by -1! I tested this with both Pd 0.46.5 and pd-extended 0.43.4 (and this bug isn't present in Pd-l2Ork).
Here is an image of the problem:
http://s1.postimg.org/bs79w4d5b/Screenshot_from_2015_10_16_22_50_23.png
Is this a known bug?
Cheers, Gilberto
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