Hello,

I think there is a definite distinction between PD user and developer.  In fact, I would love to be a developer but I don't think I have the knowledge I would need (though I do know some python and C++).  For now I am a mere user.  Let me explain why I see a distinction between developer and user (though I agree, developers are also users). 

Honestly, as a new PD user, I'm a little disappointed at this list - and please don't take this the wrong way.  I know the hardcore PD people are doing awesome work creating tools for the PD community.  The problem is that I have NO IDEA what people are talking about 90% of the time on this list.  I was hoping to gain much more practical knowledge on how to use PD.  Instead, here I feel very intimidated by the high level of technical expertise.

I think it would be good if, along with developing new features and externals, some community members would devote more time to explaining more general information on possible ways to use PD, approaches to building patches, and descriptions of live performance patches.  A great example of what I am talking about is the "Building Drums in PD" tutorial by Frank Barknecht available here: http://footils.org/tut/pddrums/pddrums.html .  There is a really strong need for this type of tutorial!  Also, I know people are doing workshops, it would also be helpful if people would post more of the information given at these workshops online.  Finally, many of the externals seem almost undocumented.  Sometimes ordinary "users" are going to need a lot more explanation/documentation of things - documentation that may seem redundant to the developers, because it is easy to forget that many of us have never worked with anything like this in our lives, and are learning computers also as we go.

Remember, all such documentation is going to make it easier for people to learn PD, which will then result in a bigger and stronger community.  As a new user, I'd love to contribute, but the technical aspect of what people discuss on this list seems way beyond me.  However, if anyone knows ways even a newer user can help, let me know!

~David Powers


B. Bogart wrote:
heya,

I agree with Gerard here. The thing that would isolate "developers" from
"users" is largely due to some kind of techno-elitism.

I think all developers are users, but not all users are developers. Mind
you since "abstractions" can be considered programs just as entire
patches can be, clearly all users of PD are programmers in some sense.

Being a user who pretends to be a developers (or is it the other way
around?) I think its pointless to draw lines between groups, when energy
is better spent in dialog and building bridges.

As for bounties I don't know what to say, I've been supported for GPL
projects though artist and government grants for a couple years now. I
do think that a PD NGO that has a specific mandate (like PD education
and advocacy, organizing and overseeing workshops and conferences, and
indeed supplying funding for specific development projects.) A PD NGO
could get "donations" and even apply for funding. It would be hard to do
though, as anyone working in artist-run-centres knows.

B>

gerard van dongen wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:09:55 +0200, Thoralf Schulze
<thoralf_schulze@yahoo.de> wrote:

hi everyone,

it's good to see that this issue is being discussed
here ...

what i don't like about the bounty system, is the
idea of "competition"
or "hunt" which is not really compatible with
"community" to my mind.



I agree. Then again, the pd community (like any other
open source community) is probably not as coherent as
it seems to be at a first glance: there are the
developers working on the software package and the
users that use it for whatever their purposes are.
There is a fundamental difference between developers
and users:


<rant>
No there isn't, especially for something like pd which is a programming
language as much as a program. There is a sliding scale between users
and  programmers.
this whole difference between devs and users is artificial and a
product  of the closed source software industry. </rant>

Not that everybody needs to code, but the idea that coding is a
fundamentally different activity from using is wrong. Part of the magic
computer mystique.



From this point of
view, bounties might be a good instrument to bring
developers and users closer together - after all, the
things that the average Joe User is missing in pd are
not necessarily less important than the new and nifty
things the average developer is implementing at the
same time.


The problem is the price tag. How much does it cost to implement
feature  z, who determines who gets the job. Can I put up bounties for
features and  then code them myself if some institution gives money? Can
I code features  first but keep them to myself untill somebody coughs up
some dough?

Bounties might work for something where there are only two or three
developers and the program has a more strict licence than pd.

Use the money to pay some developers to come install and lecture on the
stuff. Start a pd development group locally. Or commision somebody for
a  piece of music or an installation or a piece of software. Or get
some  funky hardware for the money. Sensors and stuff like that.

The pd community is too loose for something really official. And I
personally like that.


another 2 c

Gerard


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