Sounds like a good complication :).  I think a general array toolkit
    would be very useful.  I'm not a fan of expanding the use of Tcl
    syntax in Pd tho (i.e. commands with subcommands).
    
    Pd syntax is nice and simple with always the first word being the
    command and the rest being the args.  [list ...] is the only except
    to this that I can think of, and certainly the only exception
    included in pd-vanilla.
    
    How about just naming them like [tabsize], [tabfoo], etc since there
    already are lots of [tab...] objects.  Or anything to minimize the
    confusion between the 'array', 'table', and 'tab*' objects.  Since
    there is [table] and [tab*], the menu item Put -> Array could be
    renamed to "Put visual table (array)" or something like that, then
    the word table/tab would be pretty consistent throughout Pd.
    
    It may seem trivial, but I've spent a lot of time explaining why the
    objects for reading arrays all start with 'tab'.
    
    .hc
    
    On 09/27/2012 03:59 PM, Miller Puckette wrote:
    > Sorry to further complicate
      this -
      >
      > I'm now trying to design a multipurpose object "array" for pd
      > vanilla that would allow one to say [array size] and use
      "table" or
      > "data structure" arrays intercahngeably.
      >
      > I think though, that rather than marking arraysize as
      "obsolete" one
      > could simply note that it has an equivalent available in Pd
      vanilla -
      > that need carry no value judgement as to whether people
      should be using
      > vanilla or extended.
      >
      > cheers
      > M
      >
      > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 12:23:35PM -0700, Jonathan Wilkes
      wrote:
      >>> ________________________________
      >>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at>
      >>> To: Jonathan Wilkes <jancsika@yahoo.com> 
      >>> Cc: "pd-list@iem.at" <pd-list@iem.at> 
      >>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:03 PM
      >>> Subject: arraysize WAS apt.puredata.info is back!
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      > If someone wants to write patches that work on vanilla
      anywhere,
      > >> then there is a point.
      > >>
      > >> _Everybody_ wants to write patches that work on
      vanilla everywhere.
      > >>
      > >> When we can't we try to figure out a course of
      action, but when we
      > >> can (without employing wild hacks) we should.
      > >>
      > >>
      > If people are already using Pd-extended or
      > >> Debian then I honestly don't see the point,
      arraysize is already
      > >> there, like many other externals.
      > >>
      > >> It's like you wrote above. People _do_ want patches
      to be as cross-platform
      > >> as possible. (Not if.)
      > >>
      > >>
      >
      > For me, apt-get install pd-arraysize is far easier than
      trying to
      > >> remember that [expr] trick. And thankfully we can
      write externals,
      > >> so we can have choice. :-)
      > >>
      > >> If it were a wild hack I'd agree, but it's not. It
      is a standard operator for
      > >> [expr] that's been there for ages and is clearly
      documented.
      > >>
      > >> And who is this mythical user that looks to the
      Debian repositories
      > >> to figure out how to do something in a programming
      language?
      > >> (Hm, I'm not getting audio output, let's open up
      Synaptic and search
      > >> 20,000 mostly non-related packages for a
      solution...)
      > >>
      > >> -Jonathan
      > >>
      > >>
      >
      > .hc
      >
      > On 09/27/2012 03:00 PM, Jonathan Wilkes wrote:
      > >>>> That feature comes at the expense of
      compatibility, which
      > >>>> normally wouldn't be an issue _except_ that
      Pd
      > >>>> Vanilla already has the same functionality.
      So let's
      > >> encourage
      > >>>> use of the more compatible way using [expr],
      which is
      > >>>> clearly documented and supports the _exact_
      same features
      > >>>> as arraysize.
      > >>>>
      > >>>> -Jonathan
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>>> ________________________________
      > >>>>> From: Hans-Christoph Steiner
      <hans@at.or.at>
      > >>>>> To: pd-list@iem.at
      > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:24
      PM
      > >>>>> Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce]
      apt.puredata.info is
      > >> back!
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>
      > >>>> IMHO, arraysize is very useful because it
      has a memorable
      > >> name. "I
      > >>>>> need to find the size of an array... oh,
      [arraysize]".
      > >>>>
      > >>>> .hc
      > >>>>
      > >>>> On 09/27/2012 02:13 PM, Jonathan Wilkes
      wrote:
      > >>>>>>> Please change the description
      for the package
      > >>>>>>> "pd-arraysize"
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> "This object is deprecated. Use
      [expr
      > >> size("array-name")]
      > >>>>>>> which works out of the box for
      Pd Extended, Pd
      > >> Vanilla,
      > >>>>>>> and Pd-l2ork."
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> -Jonathan
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
      > >>>>>>>> From: IOhannes m zmoelnig
      <zmoelnig@iem.at>
      > >>>>>>>> To: pd-announce@iem.at
      > >>>>>>>> Cc:
      > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September
      27, 2012 9:13 AM
      > >>>>>>>> Subject: [PD] [PD-announce]
      > >> apt.puredata.info is back!
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> last night hans and me finally
      setup a
      > >> replacement machine
      > >>>>> for
      > >>>>>>> apt.puredata.info[1], the
      ultimate source for
      > >> Pd-extended on
      > >>>>>>> Debian-based systems (Debian,
      Ubuntu, Li
      > >>>>>>> fgmasdfnux/Mint,...)[2].
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> it is now hosted on the
      puredata.info
      > >> portal/mailinglist
      > >>>>> server,
      > >>>>>>> courtesy of iem.
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> fgmasdf
      > >>>>>>> IOhannes
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>> [1] http://apt.puredata.info/
      > >>>>>>> [2]
      http://puredata.info/docs/faq/debian
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >> _______________________________________________
      > >>>>>>>> Pd-announce mailing list
      > >>>>>>>> Pd-announce@iem.at
      > >>>>>>>>
      http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >> _______________________________________________
      > >>>>>>>> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
      > >>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and
      account-management ->
      > >>>>>>>>
      http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
      > >>>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      > >>>>>>>
      _______________________________________________
      > >>>>>>> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
      > >>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and
      account-management ->
      http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
      > >>>>
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      _______________________________________________
      > >>>>> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
      > >>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
      http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      > >>>>>
      >
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >> _______________________________________________
      >> Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
      >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
      http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list